295. Emily Harris and Dr Martin Lorenz - Conversational design, the Anti-Brief and systemic change
Dr Martin Lorenz (LI) and Emily Harris (LI) came by the podcast. We spoke about their project the Anti-Brief and their reimagining of the design profession: from a profession of knowing to one of discovery. Inviting learning and conversation to its very center. This is a conversation about deep codes, conversational design and an invitation towards a different posture. Martin and Emily are currently launching a new master with Elisava - that also shows up in the conversation. This is an introduction to a different way of thinking about transdisciplinarity beyond mere interdisciplinary. We also speak of the generative move between theory (the meta) and that materiality and much more related to the practice of systems change. Life ennobling design. Enjoy!
AI SUMMARY
Main Topics Covered:
The shift from traditional communication design to conversational and systemic design practices
The concept of deep codes as structural norms underlying economic and social constraints
How anti-brief exercises reframe the designer-client relationship towards collaboration and agency
The importance of posture, humility, and relationality in transdisciplinary work
Practical examples of observing and engaging with complex systems in real-world contexts
The role of dialogue and flexible frameworks in education, especially in the upcoming societal design master’s program
The significance of relational density and translation across various languages and disciplines
Encouragement for building more inclusive, exploratory, and value-driven design practices
Navigating the New Paradigm of Design: Insights from the World of Wisdom Podcast
Discover how design can drive systemic transformation. Learn insights from Martin Lorenz and Emily Harris on collaborative design and societal change.
In the latest episode of the World of Wisdom podcast, hosts Amit Paul, Martin Lorenz, and Emily Harris dive deep into the evolving landscape of design and its role in systemic transformation. With years of experience between them, they explore the tension between traditional design methods and the urgent need for a more holistic, conversation-driven approach.
The Role of Design in Systemic Change
Design has often been perceived as a tool for aesthetic and functional solutions. However, as Martin Lorenz points out, the challenges we face today require a shift in perspective. He emphasizes:
- From Communication to Conversation: The transition Martin experienced from communication design to conversational design illustrates a broader trend. Design is not just about creating visuals but engaging in meaningful dialogues that foster understanding and collaboration.
- Designing for a Purpose: As designers, there’s an inherent desire to contribute positively to society. Yet, many feel boxed in by the limitations of traditional briefs that don’t address the pressing issues of our time. Martin shares his frustration with these constraints and the urge to expand the role of design beyond surface-level solutions.
Understanding the Dissonance in Design
Emily Harris adds another layer to this discussion by addressing the emotional and intellectual dissonance many designers experience. In her view:
- The Crippling Dissonance: Emily articulates a shared sentiment among individuals today: a deep-seated awareness that our current systems are failing. This dissonance can lead to a sense of paralysis, making it difficult for designers to find effective ways to contribute.
- Listening to the Voices of Experience: Both Emily and Martin stress the importance of humility in design. Engaging with those who have lived experiences in various systems is crucial for creating effective solutions. This approach fosters a more inclusive dialogue where design can flourish.
The Journey to Societal Design
The conversation shifts to the innovative educational paths being charted in design. Martin and Emily recount their collaboration at Dark Matter Labs, where they co-developed a master’s program in societal design. Key takeaways include:
- Interdisciplinary Collaboration: Their work underscores the importance of bringing together diverse fields—economics, design, and education—to tackle complex societal issues. By facilitating conversations among these disciplines, they aim to foster a holistic understanding of the challenges at hand.
- Redesigning the Narrative: The duo believes in crafting narratives that resonate with broader audiences, making complex ideas more accessible. This not only elevates the discussion around design but also empowers individuals to engage with these concepts meaningfully.
Key Takeaways for Aspiring Designers
As the episode concludes, listeners are left with actionable insights:
- Embrace Curiosity: Don’t shy away from asking questions that may seem basic. Curiosity is essential for growth and understanding in the design process.
- Engage in Conversations: Seek out dialogues with individuals from varied backgrounds. These interactions can lead to unexpected insights and solutions.
- Redefine Success: Move beyond traditional metrics of success in design. True impact is measured by the depth of engagement and the ability to foster change.
Conclusion
In this enlightening episode, Martin Lorenz and Emily Harris challenge us to rethink the role of design in our rapidly changing world. By opening up the conversation around design, they encourage us to embrace a more collaborative and inclusive approach. As designers, our responsibility is not just to create but to engage, listen, and drive meaningful change.
Want to dive deeper into this fascinating discussion? Listen to the full episode of the World of Wisdom podcast.
Chapters / Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction: Rethinking design in systemic transformation
02:27 - The significance of conversations in design beyond aesthetics
03:41 - Human questions: Who are we, and the unknowns of identity
05:26 - Disconnection from planetary stewardship and systemic dissonance
06:46 - Designers’ frustration with limited tools amidst a burning world
08:59 - History of design movements and their failures to solve systemic issues
09:22 - The rise and limitations of design thinking and strategic design
11:12 - The role of humility and relational craft in systemic design
13:36 - Embedding craft into broader systemic frameworks
15:03 - The non-linear, conversational process of design as exploration
16:58 - The evolution from impact to value realization in projects
18:05 - Building a societal master’s program rooted in real-world complexity
19:26 - Collaborative creation of systems that acknowledge their context
21:27 - The power of conversational design in shaping understanding and narrative
22:39 - Balancing narrative and openness to foster dialogue
25:13 - The idea of deep codes and their systemic influence
27:50 - Using deep codes to question norms like healthcare and finance
30:42 - From process to education: Teaching through open frameworks and questions
31:34 - The importance of humility and diverse perspectives in learning
36:17 - Designing courses with dual domains: designers and non-designers collaborating
38:29 - Posture, humility, and curiosity as conditions for systemic engagement
44:08 - Increasing relational density to unlock transformative potential
45:24 - A project with a Swedish municipality illustrating systemic inquiry
46:52 - Performance-based value and the importance of visualizing invisible contributions
50:24 - Rethinking value as intrinsic and discoverable in living systems
51:41 - The role of quality and non-subjective attributes in enabling systemic change
54:42 - The usefulness of conversational and structural axes in community strategies
56:18 - The false rigidity of diagrams; using models as thought tools
58:56 - Navigating between matter and meta in systemic design
62:22 - The importance of friction and engagement in learning and real-world action
64:21 - Embracing hands-on experimentation and iterative cycles in societal change
66:33 - The significance of diverse geographical and disciplinary contexts
70:19 - The invitation for all to contribute to a broader, more inclusive design movement
73:23 - The centrality of values and inquiry in shaping systemic futures
74:14 - Resources: theanti-brief.org and Life Ennobling Design (LED)