269. Adrian Wagner - Complexity, micro-empathic moments and the right level of granularity
Adrian Wagner involved with both Complexity partners and the Pocket Project. We go deeply and concretely into the ins and outs of navigating complexity. We speak of the importance and power of micro-empathic moments. We also speak alot at the right level of granularity. How activism could be be reframed as finding a point where 'they' cannot hate 'us' anymore because we're involved with mutual local action. We speak about how precision is love and inquire into what would happen if we took god just a little more seriously than ourselves. This is a gem of a conversation. Enjoy! And here is the link to the release of the book (30th june 2025).
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“Precision is love.”
That’s something Adrian Wagner said during this conversation on the World of Wisdom Podcast, and it really landed in me.
Adrian is a researcher, systems thinker, and one of those rare scientists who lets his own frameworks humble him—again and again. This isn’t a conversation about having the answers. It’s about what happens when the questions reshape you.
We explored:
🌀 How trauma freezes time—and how sensing can thaw it
🌀 Why local, micro-empathic moments matter more than global opinions
🌀 How meaning-seeking can become a trap when it blocks presence
🌀 Why real system change begins with slowing down the moment until it touches the body
🌀 And what it means to “do through non-doing,” to act from attunement—not from urgency
“Often the system shows you the next step through a person. Not the solution—just the next step.”
This isn’t a grand narrative. It’s an invitation into stories that invites shift, at the right level of granularity.
Not to solve, but to sense.
Not to scale, but to resonate.
AI SUMMARY
Summary
In this episode, Amit Paul and Adrian Wagner explore the intricate relationship between complexity, identity, and activism. Adrian shares his journey of self-discovery, emphasizing the importance of emotional attunement and the need to navigate complex systems without falling into the hero's journey trap. They discuss the significance of collective trauma and the role of community in healing, advocating for a presence-focused approach to purpose and action. The conversation highlights the value of living into questions and embracing uncertainty as a pathway to meaningful engagement in the world. In this conversation, Adrian Wagner discusses the importance of addressing collective trauma and the processes involved in healing. He introduces the concept of the Sacred Storybook, which captures micro narratives that contribute to understanding cultural trauma. The discussion also delves into the significance of granularity in complex systems, emphasizing the need for local actions that foster empathy and connection. Wagner shares personal insights on integrating different perspectives and the role of embodiment in this journey.
Takeaways
Adrian Wagner emphasizes the importance of navigating complexity with emotional attunement.
The journey of self-discovery is ongoing and evolves over time.
Activism can be approached without the need for a heroic identity.
Collective trauma requires a nuanced understanding of individual and societal impacts.
Engaging with trauma can lead to creativity and joy when processed in community.
Presence in the moment is crucial for effective action in complex systems.
Purpose should be seen as a response to the present rather than a fixed goal.
The hero's journey can be a trap that leads to burnout in activism.
Community approaches to healing are essential for addressing collective trauma.
Living into questions can lead to organic growth and understanding of purpose. Climate crisis and historical trauma are interconnected.
Collective trauma integration involves deepening implicit memory awareness.
Finding balance in emotional responses to global events is crucial.
The Sacred Storybook captures micro narratives for collective healing.
Time collapse affects our understanding of historical conflicts.
Trauma-informed perspectives are essential in politics and diplomacy.
Micro narratives shape our collective functioning and sense-making.
Meeting problems requires a nuanced approach rather than quick solutions.
Attention is a form of action that influences our interactions.
Embodiment practices, like dance, can facilitate integration of complex ideas.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Complexity and Identity
07:05 The Hero's Journey and Activism
13:58 Collective Trauma and Complexity
21:13 The Role of Community in Healing
29:59 Purpose and Presence in Action
33:46 Exploring Collective Trauma and Healing Processes
39:08 The Sacred Storybook: Narratives of Healing
45:54 Granularity in Understanding Complex Systems
51:41 Building Empathy Through Local Actions
01:04:40 Dancing Between Perspectives: The Art of Integration