213. Nora Bateson - Going deeper. Meeting not matching and the importance of getting lost
Nora Bateson came by the podcast again to speak in-depth about the concept of meeting, not matching problems. This is a wonderful concrete (not abstract) conversations that dives deep into this concept. A concept that is crucial for the world we're in. One that invites a different perception of it alltogether. Here's the first conversation. The book Combining. The article Communication is sacred. Enjoy! Host: Amit Paul
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"We are in a poly crisis because of the 'unintended consequences' of or problem solving." What if there was another way?!
Nora Bateson and I got to have a deep conversation about the concept of meeting not matching problems (EP213). A concept that holds the potential to address so much of our current predicament. If it were to be applied.
So what does it mean:
❓ What's a problem❓ "In a living system a problem is a consequence of a lot of different conditions that are in motion, that are producing a problem. They are not static. There are a lot of compensatory processes. Things around compensate for what is wrong."
❗Directly addressing problems leads to more problems. ❗
"When you are working with systemic processes, you are not going to get a linear, definable, measurable outcome. If you are working with the systemic the n:th order effect [is what matters]: the communication that changes the communication, the relationship that changes the relationship keeps rippling out, so you don’t know where it stops."
🎡 Things aren't just things, there is a lot wound into them. So why does this matter? Because we are in a poly (or meta) crisis because of the 'unintended consequences' of our problem solving.
👁 So what can we do? Well first of all let's find a way to be lost in this moment together. To acknowledge that we're lost. To acknowledge that we're together. "These larger global crisis are wrapped into the most intimate, moment to moment minutia of our everyday lives."
🎶 Instead of looking for solutions we might look for what it would take for us to improvise together. "I’m not looking for hope. I’m looking for that fire, the connectivity that gets me out of the bed for another day. "
(Too abstract? Here's a silly example. If Norway were to build nuclear weapons. Sweden could match it by building their own weapons. It could also meet this by increasing trade, relationships and care to increase the dependence between the nations. The meet approach decreases the risk of a worst case scenario, the match approach doesn't.)
Take a listen to the World of Wisdom 🎙️ Podcast EP213 wherever you get your podcasts. Or follow the link in my bio. Enjoy!
AI Summary
Summary
In this conversation, Nora Bateson discusses the limitations of matching and the need for a different approach to problem-solving. She introduces the concept of first order vs. nth order solutions, highlighting the complexity of systemic issues. Bateson emphasizes the importance of understanding compensatory processes and the interconnectedness of different contexts. She explores the paradox of agency and the need to perceive and respond to multiple situations simultaneously. Bateson also discusses the urgency of finding a new way of addressing the escalating inter-systemic crises. She shares a personal story about being lost and the importance of learning how to navigate uncertainty. Finally, she reflects on the entitlement to know and the significance of promises in relationships. In this conversation, Nora Bateson and Amit explore the concept of 'meet not match' and its implications for personal growth and societal change. They discuss the importance of authenticity, embracing lostness, and recognizing the need for improvisation. They also examine the limitations of mechanistic thought and the impact of abstracted thinking on our ability to perceive possibilities. The conversation highlights the importance of finding expression and learning in different contexts and cultivating vitality to navigate challenges.
Takeaways
Matching, or addressing problems directly, is limited in complex systems.
First order solutions focus on immediate fixes, while nth order solutions consider the broader systemic context.
Compensatory processes play a crucial role in complex systems, and problems are often consequences of multiple conditions in motion.
Agency in complex systems requires a different perception and the ability to contribute to shifting relationships.
The urgency of the current crises calls for a different response that recognizes the interconnectedness of issues.
Learning how to be lost and navigate uncertainty is essential for growth and adaptation.
The entitlement to know can hinder our ability to embrace uncertainty and learn from multiple perspectives.
Promises in relationships should prioritize the well-being and growth of individuals, rather than possessiveness or control. Authenticity and honesty are essential for personal growth and meaningful connections.
Embracing lostness and uncertainty can lead to new possibilities and growth.
Recognizing the need for improvisation and adaptation is crucial in a complex and changing world.
Abstracted thinking and rigid maps of life can limit our ability to perceive and respond to emerging possibilities.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Going Deeper
02:08 The Limitations of Matching
09:09 First Order vs. Nth Order Solutions
12:46 The Compensatory Processes in Complex Systems
16:15 The Paradox of Agency
19:43 The Poly Crisis and Unintended Consequences
21:45 The Challenge of Communicating Meet Not Match
23:29 The Limitations of Categorized Communication
30:23 The Urgency of a Different Response
36:33 Learning How to Be Lost
47:38 The Entitlement to Know and Promises
52:27 Promises and Authenticity
53:18 Embracing Lostness
53:38 Recognizing and Improvising
54:41 Recontextualizing and Mechanistic Thought
56:59 Maps of Life and Perceiving Possibility
58:49 Missed Opportunities and Abstracted Thinking
01:02:12 Finding Expression and Learning in Different Contexts
01:03:29 Navigating the Darkness and Cultivating Vitality